Reflections and Close Reading

I still can't help but be bothered by what Nestor said to Patroklus back in Book 11. Not the part where he used to be this honored soldier in his younger days, but the part where he asks Patroclus to wear Achilleus' armor in the battle. Fo what reason would he ask Patroklos of all people to wear the armor? I'm aware that he wants to scare the trojans and stop them from taking the lead, but does Nestor really  believe that that would work? He is known for being this wise being who knows what's best, so for him to come up with that? I find that to be off. When we discussed this in class, it really hit me that maybe Nestor's dumb idea is actually a part of a much bigger plan where Patroklos will get destroyed in the battlefield wearing Achilleus' armor. When Achilleus finds out that his mentor/guide/second father is come kind of way has been killed in battle, he will undoubtedly be infuriated and want to reek havoc to the trojans. In the end, Nestor gets Achilleus ...

So today's class discussion stuck with me the whole day for some reason. The question was do characters like Hektor really have free will if the gods are interfering his life and if their society praise only the ones with glory. I dont think free will should have any form of pressure or interference. Saying this is faith or that this is someone's destiny isn't giving the person free will. In other words, I'm saying in our society no-one really has free will, you'll always be pushed more towards one side. Whether its the forces of nature pushing you, the gods or whatever other forces there are. For instance you'll choose to eat instead of starving, you'll choose to live instead of dying. So no, Hektor does not have free will, in fact anything that happens to him can be blamed on the gods because they're the forces that directly interfered with his life. Thought this is an extremely arguable point.

Something that really caught my eye in the Illiad was this quote.. " Mother tells me, the immortal goddess Thetis with her glistening feet, that two fates bear me on to the day of death , If I hold out here and I lay siege to Troy , my journey home is gone , but my glory never dies. If I voyage back to the fatherland I love , my pride , my glory dies ..." . I found this quote interesting because basically Achilles's mother is telling him that fate is giving him two options . He can either live a short life but glorious life in Troy or return to Phthia and live on in old age but obscurity. However, I personally do not think that anyone can control fate. If something is going to happen, I believe it will happen no matter what decisions or routes you take throughout the course of life.

Something very eye catching to me was the way that both the Trojans and the Achaians follows the signs that are given to them by the gods. In Book 12, right before the Trojans are about to break the Achaians wall they see an eagle flying over them on the left side. The eagle was holding a snake in its mouth, and the snake was still alive. The Trojans identified this as a bad sign and they become hesitant. Yet in Book 13, after Aias insults Hektor, an eagle flies over the Achaians (on the right side)  and they viewed this as a good sign. Both sides always seem to follow the signs of the gods. My main question is: does the left side mean bad luck and does the right side mean goodluck? Did the snake also have a significance in the bad sign?

Many people might not seem to support the fact that Nestor 'betrayed' Patroklos, but I believe that Nestor made the right choice in a case of definite death for all or potential victory and life. Patrokos died just like every other soldier out there is dying. of course its wrong to make someone in your team walk into death, nut maybe Nestor had a plan to save the Achaians. Maybe Nestor knew the only way Achilleus will take action in the war is by losing someone he trully cares for and the thought of never having that person back. That rage that was hidden inside Achilleus was needed at the moment. i have to admit that wasnt the only way, but it was the quickest and most effective.

Patroclus' doom is ultimately "sealed" when Achilles calls for him. Once he disguises himself as Achilles he enters battles meeting his death. It is interesting that Nestor believes this to be the only way to get Achilles to actively do something instead of depending on his soldiers to fight for him. The reader gets a sense that Achilles has faced the fact that he will lose this battle, but once what he loves his lost forever he is willing to fight for his honor and glory.

I find it interesting that Agememnom is willing to reconcile with Achilles. What is the point behind all of this? He knows in the end he will lose the fight. The gifts insinuate that Agememnom thinks of Achilles as a god like figure, but he still insults him insisting that he is much more powerful and god like. With this, Achilles is bound to reject the gifts and prove that he is in fact a god. Agememnom not only insults Achilles, but does so without even an apology that he is willing to repair their friendship and trust. Achilles only wish is to receive the power and glory he has said he always deserved.

What i find interesting in the readings is diomedes, he wanted immoral respect by fighting. He’s not immortal at all.  he’s always ready for combat. He thought he was immortal but he is not, he got wounded and Athena came to him. He’s that one character with such a big ego, unfortunately for him his more of the underdog.

What I really enjoyed seeing was the difference of Agamemnon’s actions from book nine to book eleven. When Agamemnon fell to his knees in book nine weeping in front of the people, it portrayed him to be a very weak man despite the many times he considered himself so strong and courageous. It was surprising to see how he made a complete turn in book eleven when he started killing people in battle –truly showing a courageous side of him that I didn’t really thing would be shown anytime soon. He is seen to be a great leader as well as fearless warrior as he “wide powerful Agamemnon…as a lion seizes the innocent young” (Book XI. Lines 107-113). This clearly shows a change, not only in Agamemnon’s character, but the way I portray him, as well. In all, it was a great surprise to see what other turns this book will have.

     Throughout the time of reading book 3 of the Iliad, which happens to be my favorite part of the Iliad so far, I have come to an understanding that at the beginning of book 3 the Achaean's and the Trojans are coming together. Paris then comes out in leopard skin after Menelaus introduces that he is more than willing to fight a god like Alexander. A couple lines later Hector responds to this conduct by his brother by introducing that he wishes he was never born. Then Paris shows up in front of everybody and then flees, which later results in a showdown between Paris and Galius. Specifically my favorite part was in Iliad 3.364-369 when Menelaus drags Paris by his hair. While reading those specific lines I actually felt like I was engaged in the battle myself with such an intense use of dramatic vocabulary in those lines. All of this is then followed by Aphrodites summoning Helen, which she was disguised as an old lady but Aphrodites still recognized her.  

Throughout books 6 to 8 in the Iliad, I noticed that there's this constant emphasis on peer pressure, bravery and cowardliness. It seems that these characteristics often are what sets a lot of the warriors apart, which made it harder for me to choose or pick who is the antagonist and protagonist. first there's the part where Agamemnon basically calls his brother a wuss for wanting to spare a life in the beginning of book 6, then there's Hector who calls out the Achians also giving them this wussy title, then there's Diomedes helping out Nestor alone etc. These books are simply full of constant back and forth with bravery, cowardliness, peer pressure and betrayal.

What i found interesting reading the iliad is how all of the characters are different, there’s Zeus who has the most power, and then there are the characters that don’t do too much. Paris is one of them, he dropped out of the battle which i didn’t find suprising, he isn’t the greatest fighter. At least he got convinced to go back and fight. To me he’s an interesting character because he’s not one of the “main guys.”

As I was reading book eight of  The Iliad , I realized something that really spiked my interest. I know that Zeus is constantly referred to as "Father Zeus" even by other gods or goddesses, yet he isn't the most powerful in terms of obedience from any of the immortals The other gods and goddesses can and do disobey him, for example Hera who has multiple times spoken back to Zeus in anger. However, when Zeus commands that “no female divinity, nor male god either, presume to cut across the way of my word…then he will see how far I am strongest of all the immortals,” (VIII. Line 7-8, 17) he overpowers all the immortals as they sit there in complete silence. He spoke strongly and they obeyed his word. He said himself he does not want them to interfere because he wants things to go as he pleases and he knows them interfering will not allow him to do so. It is interesting how in such a moment the gods and goddesses do choose to listen to him when he speaks ...

  One theme I see consistently in The Illiad is competition. Competition is one of the things that keeps this story going because every character care about their pride and reputation. For example, when Hektor prayed that his son will grow up to be a better warrior than him .. we as readers view that as Hektor being a family man and supporting his son . However, this could also mean that he wants to go around bragging about having a better son than anyone else. Therefore, this shows that competition in The Illiad could be for the smallest things, which is makes it as big of a theme as it is.

Something ironic that I noticed throughout my readings was the moment in Book 5 when Aphrodite was stabbed by Diomedes. This moment was actually very funny because gods and goddesses are usually portrayed as very powerful characters. However, Aphrodite returns to Olympos and immediately runs to her mother. Aphrodite's mother Dione was comforting her, explaining the many occasions in which mortals attacked gods. In addition, Zeus even told Aphrodite to stay away from the war and let Athene handle it. This moment made Aphrodite sound childish and extremely powerless. She was certainly not portrayed as a strong goddess in this book.

I found a section of book 7 of The Iliad  to be a bit confusing for me. For example, "'Stop the  fight ,  dear   children , nor go on with this  battle . To Zeus  who gathers the clouds  both of you are  beloved ,  and both of you are  fighters ; this thing  all of us  know  surely .   Night  darkens  now. It is a  good  thing to  give way  to the night-time'" (279-282). This part is when the herald stops the fight between Hector and Ajax. I got the impression that Zeus does not want to lose either Hector and Ajax, that is the reason why he stopped the fight. If I am correct, than why does Zeus not want to lose both?

Can we just stop and talk about the dramatic flip that occurred in Book 9? Agamemnon, this king who is committed to winning the war actually gave up. With Achilleus rejecting Agamemnon’s offer and dropping out of the war, it totally destroyed Agamemnon’s spirit. It was during the beginning of the 9th Book where Homer shows his audience just how defeated Agamemnon is. It states “Agamemnon stood up before them, shedding tears, like a spring dark-running that down the face of a rock impassable drips its dim water.” I’m no poet, but that simile is very clever and well-put. I’m guessing that Homer was comparing Agamemnon as the rock and the spring as his tears, but what’s really interesting is that Agamemnon is no rock, he is like a small twig that can easily be crushed by the slightest amount of pressure. The simile is contradicting yet beautifully executed with the situation that is being played out. 

          So far while reading all of the books I’ve been confused most of the time. It’s most likely the language used but the class discussions have helped. Talking about the tension build up when both sides actually thought for a moment that they wouldn’t have to go to war and trying to put yourself in their position really makes the whole situation a bit more clear. A part that expressed more of the army’s feelings toward this all was in Book 9.72-75 where it states “We lowered them into the ships, fearing destruction, and hurriedly rowed our ships toward the mainland. For two days and two nights we lay there, without ever a break, eating our hearts in pain and exhaustion.” This war has been going on for years now, the ache and need for it to be over is more than obvious. So far, that is clear to me.

I agree with you all that find some of the gods names hard to pronounce. I sometimes get confused with who is who because some names sound similar. However, I wanted to comparer how Diomedes is described as a lion in the Iliad, Book 5, lines 136-143. "...now the strong rage tripled took hold of him, as of a lion whom the shepherd among his fleecy flocks in the wild lands grazed as he leapt the fence of the fold, but has not killed him....such was the rage of strong Diomedes as he closed with the trojans." He is as strong and powerful as a lion due to the fact Athena grants Diomedes strength in battle so that he would shine forth and win himself great glory. Diomedes is killing many Trojans in the battle field and when Pandarus shoots him with an arrow in his shoulder, Diomedes calls upon Athena who gives him power to see the gods on the battlefield. Therefore, should Diomedes be considered as powerful as a lion if Athena keeps granting him with power and strength?

While reading The Ilaid a few things have caught my attention. One thing is that how far Hera would go against the Trojans and how stuck up she can be. She has problems because she’s not the prettiest goddess. Hera says “no way we are going to let there be peace not after all the effort i’ve out into hurting the trojans” and “but quickly order, athena down to battle now into killing ground of trojans.” (B. 4  76-80). she’s very loyal to the greeks, her and Zeus also go back and fourth at each other. They come off as very aggressive people towards each other at some points.

Comparing all the books that we have read so far the one that I've liked or caught my eye was book number three. Its interesting because it contains the start of the battle between Acheans and Trojans, and the reason for that was Helen. If you look in this book we can say that the whole book is interesting, because a women cause a big battle. there were two parts that I really liked in this book. the first one is when Hector starts to tell Paris that he's not brave as much as he is handsome. In my opinion this part is what kind of made Paris to decide his mind, because Paris "insulted" him in a way, so Paris made the decision to fight Menelaus. The second part that I liked was when both Acheans and the Trojans came to the conclusion that the war should be fought between Menelaus and Paris. This way was the best in my opinion because those two and Helen were the only reason that the battle started. When I finished reading the book I had some questions. The main questio...

In Book 3, we see Helen join Priam and the high standing men.   This is the first instance in the Iliad where a mortal female is in the presence of men and at that, Trojan elders.   While Helen and Priam converse, it is nice to see that we get a glimpse of Helen’s personality and how she converses with men.   The Trojan elders are amazed at her beauty and express it in a way that almost sound contradictory. [Book 3, pg 104, line 158] “Terrible is the likeliness of her face to immortal goddesses.”   With the use of terrible to explain how these men feel about her beauty in relation to goddesses, it kind of shows that they are shocked that a mortal can exemplify beauty that closely mirrors immortal goddesses.   That part stood out to me.   Another scene in this book stood out when Priam asked Helen about the Greek heros, as if he didn’t already know about all the heros.   He seemed like he was trying to get close to her and gain some alone time.  ...

One of my favorite quotes from book three of The Iliad was, “ Don't provoke me - wretched headstrong girl! Or in my immortal rage I may just toss you over Hate you as I adore you now - with a vengeance” (480-492). Aphrodite is usually characterized as “the goddess of love, beauty, and procreation” and serves as a point of comparison for female beauty as a whole. However, here you see something other than what most people view her as. You see rage unravel as Aphrodite tries to disguise herself in front of Helen and persuade her to go to Paris, however Helen refuses. Helen then realizes the goddess’ rage and is gripped by fear, quickly keeping her mouth shut and following as the goddess says. This to me seemed a little different than what I pictured Aphrodite to really be like. She represents love, which is characterized as gentle, however in this particular scene she is pushy and demanding. This is something different coming from the goddess of lov...